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play and if you start. to. follow and welcome to cross talk about turkey and its road ahead a little over a year ago turkey was being hailed as the new leader and model for the muslim world among many turks the ottoman legacy is again back in vogue my house things have changed instead of focusing on a foreign policy of no problems of its neighbors particularly syria is ankara's foreign policy today in disarray. look at. the flow. to cross-talk the new ottomans i'm joined by gareth jenkins in istanbul he is a non resident senior fellow with the institute for security and development policy silk road studies program. also in istanbul we have i can edit america he is

a republican people's party member of parliament and in washington we crossed ten years but correspondent for the town daily and a fellow with the henry jackson society right gentlemen cross-talk rosen in fact i mean she can jump in anytime one gary fike if i go to you first what is neo ottoman ism and is it a good idea but basically i think it's the idea that there should be a turkish fluency in the middle east in particular in those territories which were once ruled by the ottoman empire and it's very simple answer your question no i don't think it's a good idea and i don't think the people in the region want ok can you give me two reasons why it's a bad idea. no one is i don't think anybody in the region wants to go back to the age when paris and where you have one particular country loading it over the others and the other is that there are many sectarian divisions within the region now both between sunni and shia and also divisions on ethnic grounds so if you put all these

people in to one particular block you're both going to get basically undemocratic system but you're also going to get divisions and tensions within our block so i don't think even if turkey was able to establish it it would be a very healthy model which to go into the future in washington d.c. what do you think about that because the term exist people are talking about it a lot is written about it. yes first of all thanks for having me. well first of all turkish administration i mean foreign minister a little taller has been denying that there is any of the money isn't just for the record i think we need to. tell it but let's look at last ten years i mean turkey before spring started was again being accused of. new ottoman just because you know. it was getting along validate iran

and russia and against syria i mean it was receiving older flags from as especially from washington just because you know it was using its soft power and now after the arab spring you know famous zero problems are a problem neighbors whole scene you know go on and again now turkey is being accused as no someone because he's not getting along with you know iran. and syria especially so they the bottom line is turkey is not same turkey before two thousand no it is you know different ambitions and a water where it does no it's you know better economy it's been accused is no to mons at any rate whatever it does ok i don't what do you think

about that because you know year and a half ago turkey didn't have very many problems with its neighbors now it has problems with almost everybody now. i think we need to distinguish between two different foreign policy styles one is what has already been going on that turkey is becoming more dynamic and proactive in foreign policy and as opposition member of the parliament i do support the new dynamism and proactive style in turkish foreign policy this however is quite different from what's also going on on the other hand and we can't simply gloss it as a new ottoman style or foreign policy and this is a foreign policy that relies heavily on turkey's sunni muslim partners in the greater region moreover she within turkey in

domestic politics there is the self perception that turkey is moving towards in your argument for the sea and you can hear this from many bureaucrats and also opinion leaders in turkey as well close to the government and what the second style of policy has brought us to is. all these emerging problems not only in the immediate neighborhood of turkey but also in the regions beyond because my colleagues in the balkans my colleagues in the caucasus my colleagues in north africa have repeatedly told me in our encounters that no one wants a big brothers in the region and no one wants turkey to be involved in a new or imperial in a condescending style in these regions ok gareth you know a more activist foreign policy is risky isn't it. i mean we see that you're learning about also. i think you have to be very careful about what kind of

activist policy this is i would actually take issue with you on this idea that out . the author is he says he's not in the autumn and when you look at what he talks about he talks about how everything was going very well up until the first world war he talks about four hundred years of peace and harmony in the middle east he talks about history reasserting its natural course all of these are references to the ottoman past they may be slightly coded references but they are there they have a lesson the problem is that when you then pursue an activist foreign policy based upon supremacism you're going to run into problems i don't think there's any question if you look at the people in the region they're mostly muslims they'd much prefer to have good relations with turkey and to be close to turkey than they would prefer to be with countries outside of such as my own britain which has its own. imperial past in a region that had to choose between britain and circular much prefer to have good relations with turkey but the problem with turkey it's been trying to assert itself

and helping other people what to do if you talk to the people in the region they want to be partners with turkey they don't want to be subjects they don't want to be subordinates and turkey is activist foreign policy has been based on government telling people what to do we even have one last year went to egypt and told a very conservative society they should be secular like turkey was this isn't a question of partnership this is dictating to other people how they should behave and setting yourself up as a model for others to follow which i think is extraordinary arrogant and also very insulting to the people to whom you're saying it ok if i go back you in washington is but there's a competition for influence if we can look at syria here in other proxies in the neighborhood getting involved in a turkey just wants to be part of the game be part of the decision making game it's very very dangerous when you're dealing with a civil like yours but i mean to turks are not alone in wanting to exert influence in the region it's a competition. definitely.

i mean let me take one issue it. mr i can. well about the sunni. part of the you know foreign policy that you know. seeing sunni well turkey also. want to you know. want to cut their fee and mubarak to leave the power leaders you know the these leaders for some nice. i mean we mostly right now of the big problem in the region in syria obviously many of the turkish problems for impose problems stem from syria problem and yes there is a competition. you know let's talk about syria it's next door to turkey what or what happens in syria you know impacts turkey and so on many levels

. i mean i think turkey had no other choice but to. certain degree involved with syria. and that's you know what did i mean you can criticize turkey or you know if i google if i go to a kind of let's look at syria because you know it before this you know before turkey's stance it could have been a mediator it could have played a very different role but it decided to go against assad so you can what do you think about that because you know the dynamic change there i mean the syrians are not going to look at the turks as being a mediator i still insistent turkey's involvement in the middle east and north africa is one that works through the new conservative partners the case of egypt and the case of libya i think prove my case. since what we see on the

rise in these two countries is muslim brotherhood influence in politics and we also see a similar trend in iraq where turkey is again at odds with the government in syria turkey unfortunately has acted in a very sectarian based and has not been a positive. support for democrats is ation and institution building because i believe we have two alternatives here. syria as the main opposition party we agree with the government that it's a human tragedy and the civilian killings should seize at once and we want democrat is ation in syria but where we differ from the turkish government is that we want an all encompassing participatory and transparent process in syria which includes all stakeholders as legitimate partners in governing

a democratic syria hippie government on the contrary when it comes to their stance in syria is not only a sectarian but always focuses its influence on narrower segments of society and is leading the syria is leading syria to a majority in the regime where fundamental rights and freedoms will not be secured ok and we're only going to go to the break will quickly tell you no guarantee here don't you think the turks push democracy more than anything else because they actually done a pretty good job the turks and a good job in pushing democracy yes i mean if this is a model that could be exported ok there's a sense of operative support dorie democracy ok instead of a sectarian element to it. yeah but turkey at the moment is becoming increasingly undemocratic a moral authority and i mean that if turkey was moving towards being a more liberal participate society then i would agree but when we look at turkey

itself we're saying it's increased authoritarianism less that's come up to say also saying the double standard in turkey will go back to you for example standard when we come back from the break after a short break we'll continue our discussion stay with us. and. you know sometimes you see a story and it seems so you think you understand it and then you glimpse something

else you hear or see some other part of it and realize that everything you. are welcome is a big picture. you know from the. radioactive fallout of government betrayal the government. everything lauded and lauded and claude how can the truth be revealed if there's no official evidence there was a very great. to the service make a search who will given no problem. and to the people of this country generally because of radio like the fall of. the secrets of the u.k.'s nuclear tests

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welcome back across the world to mind you we're talking about reviews foreign policy ambitions. and.

ok gareth i'd like to go back to you at the end of the first segment you used the term double standard and on this program when anyone says double standard i go right back to them so go ahead ok what i was trying to say was when you look at turkey's reaction for example the uprisings in bahrain in february two thousand and eleven where you had the uprising by a shia majority against a very undemocratic sony ruling elite now that time actually turkey sided with the sunni elite and as a double standard you're now going to try to say that by supporting the opposition to our side you're supporting democracy also you go back a couple of years for turkish support for the regime in sudan and the regime in sudan which was perpetrating a genocide in darfur so i think we see of course turkey is not alone in this other countries have been guilty of double standards but it does raise a serious questions about the turkish government's motivations if it tries to pretend it's actually supporting democracy and not just people who it with whom it

happens to agree sectarian reasons ok well if i go back to you in washington where is what is the role of islam if there if turkey in indeed is pursuing a new autumn in agenda here which the government as you point out denies but i mean it's the region is so there's so much strife when it comes to sectarian differences in religion can islam be that element to unify people apparently not. i mean before this question which is a great question i'm going to have to agree with geritol julie terms of you know of turkish democracy and where it is heading unfortunately you know in terms of standards of the democracy freedom of press you know many other aspects that turkey did the you know the role turkey's on fortunately doesn't seem a good you know having good role and. you know turkey is someone just

told few days ago charkhi a can be a great economy model maybe for the middle east but you know for the time being unfortunately turkey is becoming more authoritarian in terms of double standards. again i mean syria is very different case series and neighbor is not bahrain is not sold on it is neighbor and you know as someone who would be me to syria three times you've seen this year. chile someone who got arrested by the syrian regime. i was able to. see the damascus suburbs in january how people got sold tired of these regime and you know i am taking issue. on that you know those are great ideas transparency you know transition to

democracy. but there is the you know authority in damascus that you know can accept those ideas you know are oblique try. peace mission. kofi annan try now brahimi try. i mean. from from the beginning the massacres was not interested in that kind of dialogue and you know when i'm going to talk to the syrian people on the ground i talk you know i was again in aleppo and it's lived in late august people just don't trust these regime to go on any other path that i mean you know i guess we go to hell i believe i can in istanbul i mean what is a positive role that turkey can play now in resolving the situation in syria because

it's already taken a fight. i think turkey is already on the other side of the mirror visibly syria that is i see little chance of turkey playing a positive role in syria because we have already entrenched ourselves within syria through our support for the insurgents logistical support our support our financial support and which means that turkey no longer has the legitimacy to speak to other stakeholders in syria and i do agree that assad's regime cannot continue as it does and i do agree that it was already. thought it in the regime and turkish prime minister don befriended him and became best buddies for a while but i still believe that transition to democracy rarely happens through

lots of bloodshed and. civilian fighting and killing and often what we need is a great gradual transition. often bringing in carrots and sticks from the international community i know assad is difficult to move in the right direction but my take on democratization is that a gradual and incremental move towards. furthering fundamental rights and freedoms particularly with incentives and disincentives from the international society is always a better idea garrity think that the turks have burned their fingers already and syria there's no way out. i think we've got to that point now unfortunately i think there was an opportunity in the past where turkey could have played a more constructive role and we even saw assad a few weeks days ago saying that his regime was prepared to talk to turkey but that

was rejected out of hand by by turkey turkey could also play a role in trying to encourage the opposition to have a more democratic pluralistic agenda and be ready to condemn atrocities which occur and all killings of civilians which are carried out by elements within the opposition i think that would send a very strong signal if it didn't just condemn atrocities committed by one side but condemn them when they were committed by both sides but when you have a situation whereby turkish artillery is now open air upon assad's forces as soon as a shell crosses the border regardless of where it's coming from that doesn't look like a country which is in a position to be an interlocutor ok if i go back to you in watching do you think the turks are doing this because they're a member of nato that no matter how far how bad it gets they can always look to their nato friends to bail them out even though the nato nato forces don't look like they are interested in syria at least overtly right now but it's kind of an interesting situation to be in because you can be responsible and i think

personally turkey has been responsible. definitely should be you know one of the reasons turkey is more confident i mean you know turkey has been weak not so more than half a century. you know it has been. you know cold war later on but it comes to you know. benefit from not so i don't know how many times turkey benefits from lots of the current situation. will follow on members of the. u.s. obama administration's policies i mean you can see you know not to. for us every other day he you know comes out not you know has no interest whatsoever to intervene in syria every other day i mean i don't. really organisation treaty organisation gareth what about this i mean if turkey wants to

have greater influence in the region can it stay a member of nato because if it stays a member of nato or looks like it's a kind went of washington absolutely i think this is a major dilemma for turkey went out only he wrote a book in one thousand nine hundred one called civilization of transformation and the muslim world which formed the basis of a much more famous book he wrote later ten years later called strategic depth and then in his first book he was very explicit turkey needs to be a member of an alternative security architecture architecture is the way put it to nato and i think that there is a very real danger now for turkey that if it continues to have all these problems with different countries and even with egypt relations are that good at the moment it's going to look like a proxy for the west if it remains in nato and yet if it leaves it's also going to leave isolated i think you can even discuss who was strategically politically how

much turkey is gain from nato membership in terms of technically most of its equipment comes from the nato countries it's training all of this is done in cooperation with nato so from a technical perspective. it has gained a lot and if you form some kind of alliance with other countries in the region no other country in the region has the technology that could match what turkey can get from other nato members are going to want to jump in on you know to turkey its future in nato. nato to turkey i think it represents more than simply security page and nato is in fact and encourage together with the council of europe and together with turkey's e.u. membership. turkey in western values but what i really mean by western values is basically human rights fundamental rights and freedoms gender equality secularism and so on and so forth because increasingly turkish citizens

see. the threat posed to a pluralistic democracy in turkey by the rising because medical authority of the on . medical authority that neither respect. ok many are here is that many. years on is turkey going to the east or the west or is it sustaining rightward is forty second. i think turkey is leaning towards the east but it may find its peter still in the west ready gentlemen thank you very much for of riveting discussion many thanks to my guests in istanbul and in washington thanks to our viewers for watching us here at the scenic time remember.

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